Curse

lursey · Aug 16, 2011, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

It will meet few problems :
- some top GvG guilds that everyone knows for not being fair would sync on dead hours to get those items
- they would sell them to people willing to buy those
- some SC's will require players to have such items

Fixing this by making items dedicated could be an option, but then you will see the other problem left with syncing : " WTS place in this guild for syncing , free items only xx ectos "

That's pretty much the problem in this game with the too high rewards today... you can't implement anything without getting the unfair ways of obtaining items....

only a particular rank can use a pve item... rank elitism cycle again and again.

*lemming* · Aug 16, 2011, 10:47 AM // 10:47

You know how you're supposed to deal with exploits that circumvent design like that?

Have a support team that actually bans people.

Swingline · Aug 16, 2011, 11:47 AM // 11:47

I really don't like many of the ideas floating around here, they are toxic to any game with a PvP/PvE split. There's a reason blizzard nerfed PvP gear in WoW to make it less effective in PvE. I remember doing battlegrounds in WoW to get pvp gear at level 70 then wrecking Karazhan with not one piece of PvE gear.

PvP died because of balance and structure issues along with stagnate game types. GvG and HA are dead because the only thing that has changed are the rewards and skills. There was no change in game type at all or how that form of PvP works. Killing people is fun but only for a while. I don't want to play a game that's been the same for 6 years, I want to have goals, I want the game to mean something far more than just killing the opposite team. There is a reason JQ is more popular than any other PvP format in the game.

drkn · Aug 16, 2011, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I, as a long-time PvEr and casual PvPer, do not think the rewards have anything to do with 'saving' the PvP. Everyone points at the right question - is getting into PvP worth it? - but gets to, imho, wrong conclusions.

What makes RA and JQ so popular, especially when compared to HA and GvG? Sure, it's much easier to 'master', but getting to high proficiency takes both time and effort, as well. There are cheesy gimmicks that everyone may take off from gwpvx... oh, wait.

Well, first of all, you don't need other people to play RA and JQ. I mean - sure, you get into a group, but you don't have to form it beforehand, even if it means no monk in RA for seventh match in a row, or five sword warriors in JQ, two being bots. Still, wasting time for a bad game is much better than wasting time waiting for a game, eventually getting none at all. You don't have to organise eight people at the same time, organise their builds, build up communication... sure, those are things often liked by HAers and GvGers, but mainly because they got used to them already, and because they have a constant group to play with. That's pretty much why constant parties took over clans in L2, but that's a completely unrelated note.
So, we have the time. And, keep in mind, people who started playing even as late (?!) as 2007 are now four years older, which means more important school stuff, getting into job life, getting married, having kids and other time-taking what-nots. When i was in one of the PvP guilds - more about that later - i wasn't bothered by losing in the first or second HA map - the waiting, looking for people to fill up the party, organising everything up - that was frustrating. And not only for me - the r8+ Heroes weren't cold-blooded about it, either.
That leads us to people. When you encounter an idiot, a kid, say, a total noob - so that you'd give his brain to the scientists so they can find the missing link of evolution - in RA or JQ, you're pretty much free to flame him, yell at him, make fun of him - whatever. Sure, it's not 'fine' to do so, but you get the idea - you probably will never meet the guy again, it's not someone from your guild or your friendlist. It's just a random dumbass you happened to play with - not someone from your team.
Everything changes when it comes to structured PvP...

So a rookie who played some RA and even got that 200 glad points wants to get into HA. Is it worth it? Rewards-wise - sure, the first ranks in the title don't seem too distant (even if, in fact, they are, the relatively small numbers are encouraging). The rewards from HoH chest seem good, with the minipet being simply awesome. Heck, even the bigger competitivity of HA is a reward itself for many.
What can the rookie do? He needs people to play HA with, and he can't really pug with r2 glad. So he joins a PvP guild, stating that he never played HA and is looking for someone to take him along, teach him, have fun together. Sounds obvious.
Let's say that at least 'some' guilds, that agreed to invite a non-experienced PvPer-wanna-be, never really take him along to play. They have their core team, and if the core isn't present, they often prefer to pug r6+ than take a newcomer with no HA experience. And if our rookie finally gets into the game, there are several scenarios. The most possible one is probably that the team loses several times (after all, if they took our rookie, they probably weren't all r9+, more like a r5 'mentor' decided to take youngsters out, fill the group with pug), and then it gets disbanded. Our rookie can't pug another group, and starting his own guild for rookies is not a viable option that late into the game - the old PvPers will just wipe his team in seconds, not letting them to learn. So he can't do anything if the 'superiors' from his guild are not kind enough to let him play HA, being nice and helpful, let him try different roles, let him learn.

With people like - amongst many, many others - Lemming, Urania and Reikai, is it really worth it?

TL;DR: that late into the game, HA doesn't need more item rewards, but more possibilities to get into it without having to cope with elitism in the first place. I guess GvG has similar problems, as it's structured, with pre-made party of 8 people, and has waiting times. It's not small rewards that scare people off, but other people who already have dominated the format.

Some time ago, i have proposed, along other things, to break HA into 'lower' and 'upper'. Only r0-r4 people allowed to play the lower variant, only r5+ people allowed to play the upper variant. Remake the rewards accordingly. Make noobs fight noobs and learn from it. It would revitalize pugging, thus making PvP friendlists and new PvP guilds. The problem is, are there enough HA-wanna-plays to fill the lower variant?
And, is it worth it?

Artisan Archer · Aug 16, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

First of all, you compare an RoJ monk to a build like Trip Front or even BBway. Then you proceed to make incorrect assumptions about people taking pugs over guildies. Then you suggest dividing a format which has 150-300 players online at peak hour (2ish districts) , in two. I hope you can see why I don't agree with you, drkn.

drkn · Aug 16, 2011, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Then you proceed to make incorrect assumptions about people taking pugs over guildies.

I tried to get into the HA scene. Been in seven guilds; in three, r6+ people always pugged if they lacked one guy, instead of taking me or another guild rookie. The 'PvE noobs' may try to get into HA, but they can't do it on their own right now, that late into the game, and adding more rewards won't change it.

floor · Aug 16, 2011, 04:11 PM // 16:11

New players can get into the pvp scene if they actually bother to put in some effort, in most cases they dont. Expecting the existing playerbase to go out of their way to accommodate beginners is ridiculous. Most experienced players are happy to help out, but dont expect them to do everything for you.

Rookie players really have to try and educate themselves a bit. The rest of the playerbase are exactly that, players, we're not teachers who get paid to spend all our time teaching "rookies" how to not suck ass at the game.

Beginners who are serious about joining competitive formats need to get on forums and read threads about basic tactics, weapon swapping, why armor is important. Then get on observe mode, watch some games and try and relate what you just read on a forum, to the game that you are watching. Then whilst you are obsing these games, pick someone from the game and pm them, ask them questions about stuff u saw but didnt understand. This has the added bonus of u not only learning stuff, but also having the chance to get to know experienced players, ie expanding ur contact list.

After you think you might have a very basic understanding of the game, try and form your own groups, in GvG this is easy, u only need 2 guildies. Get 1 friend, form a guild, now pm those guys u saw on obs and spoke to earlier, and get them to come and guest to make up the other 6. wow u now have 8 people, wasnt so hard?

In HA its more difficult, but heres a tip, ppl almost never check the title of the guy forming the group, so just make it up and try and form a r6+ group. Assuming you obs'd some games and read some forums, you know the team builds, so can search for the players you need just by copying a build from another team.

New players usually dont do any of this, they just join a guild and expect to be invited to the team and showed how to do stuff. Please please, try and educate yourself a bit before coming on forums and complaining about how hard it is to get involved. If this seems like a lot of work, too much for a game perhaps, then ask yourself why do u expect experienced players to put in the work to teach you, if ur not willing to put the work in urself?????

Further Note: When observing games, very rarely is it a case of 2 teams just running into each other, spamming skills, and someone dies. Try and pick out key strategies and understand what is happening, if u dont then pm ppl from the game and find out.

/sorry for the rant, but it iritates me when people post all over forums "elitism bla bla, they wont let me play bla bla." when quite clearly they just expect experienced players to do everything for them.

drkn · Aug 16, 2011, 04:31 PM // 16:31

PvPers are not teachers, but they are the ones whining how the GW PvP scene is dead. I couldn't care about it less, but i wanted to try something new - and yeah, i did my best at it, wasted lotsa time on obs just to grasp the structured PvP, watched yt, analysed builds. What more a rookie can do, if he's not given the opportunity to actually play, in pugs or guilds?

I was sure sooner or later a PvPer will assume that it was my fault, this way or another; an assumption built pretty much on nothing. "New players usually" is as viable, or even less so, as my "in most PvP guilds". That very thing is the prejudice that killed your PvP format.
Let me ask you though - have you, with your guild, ever opened recruitation for PvP scrubs, to actually give it a shot? Well, i tried to get into that format and got some experience - not in HA, but with PvP guilds. Seven ain't too many, but that's sure enough for me to say it's not worth the hassle.

e: tried to run my own pug, and when r2 glad was everything i could show when prompted, i was left alone

lursey · Aug 16, 2011, 05:23 PM // 17:23

is dividing players in to groups according to their rank (or better skill) vs similar skill level will chop the dead format into deader?

sometimes I doubt, because there is a possibility that the low skill level may finally have a chance to play in the format.....as they can join in without facing too much elitism attitude..??

Plutoman · Aug 16, 2011, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

*snip*

You know what the problem is? You - and other high end PvP players - expect beginners to treat it like a job. It's not. A beginner is going to play because they think it's fun - they'll get good after playing. A beginner is not going to think, huh, this looks interesting - let's treat it like my college courses!

There's no entrance for casual PvP, and no methods for beginners to play - without having to treat it like a class, or work. People want to play and have fun. If they have to put an extra 50 hours of work into it before they can actually play and have fun (and barely get that as it is, until you put hundreds of hours), then they're not going to do it. Simple as that.

A beginner isn't going to enjoy playing where he gets tromped every game, either, regardless of how educational it might be for their PvP experience.

clear · Aug 16, 2011, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

You know what the problem is? You - and other high end PvP players - expect beginners to treat it like a job. It's not. A beginner is going to play because they think it's fun - they'll get good after playing. A beginner is not going to think, huh, this looks interesting - let's treat it like my college courses!

There's no entrance for casual PvP, and no methods for beginners to play - without having to treat it like a class, or work. People want to play and have fun. If they have to put an extra 50 hours of work into it before they can actually play and have fun (and barely get that as it is, until you put hundreds of hours), then they're not going to do it. Simple as that.

A beginner isn't going to enjoy playing where he gets tromped every game, either, regardless of how educational it might be for their PvP experience.

JQ, FA and RA are all casual PvP. You can simply pick up any time you want and not miss a beat.

Think about RA and Codex as a means to get into greater and better PvP such as HA and GvG. RA is great for beginners because you can run what ever you want and learn how to play...

Everyone was a beginner at one point and was rank discriminated or called a noob. This is part of the process to becoming a better player. If you didn't have productive and negative feedback how would you improve?

Lucy Saxon · Aug 16, 2011, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by clear

JQ, FA and RA are all casual PvP. You can simply pick up any time you want and not miss a beat.

Think about RA and Codex as a means to get into greater and better PvP such as HA and GvG. RA is great for beginners because you can run what ever you want and learn how to play...

Everyone was a beginner at one point and was rank discriminated or called a noob. This is part of the process to becoming a better player. If you didn't have productive and negative feedback how would you improve?

You're missing the point.

Reverend Dr · Aug 17, 2011, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You know how you're supposed to deal with exploits that circumvent design like that?

Have a support team that actually bans people.

Oh, there are a few choice words that they will quickly ban someone for using.

Lanier · Aug 17, 2011, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

A beginner is not going to think, huh, this looks interesting - let's treat it like my college courses!

There's no entrance for casual PvP, and no methods for beginners to play - without having to treat it like a class, or work. People want to play and have fun. If they have to put an extra 50 hours of work into it before they can actually play and have fun (and barely get that as it is, until you put hundreds of hours), then they're not going to do it. Simple as that.

This is kind of my opinion as well. High-end PvP is just too time intensive for a beginner to it (like myself) to... well begin. Iv got enough Real-life issues that take up my time. I have considered getting into it in the past - even going as far as joining a GvG "training" guild, but over and over again I have realized that I am not willing to spend that much time on a "game". Thus, when I PvP, I stick to FA with the occasional AB or RA.

clear · Aug 17, 2011, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucy Saxon

You're missing the point.

Sorry I only read Plutoman's most recent post maybe you can summarize the other 6 pages of posts for me?

Still Number One · Aug 17, 2011, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

This is kind of my opinion as well. High-end PvP is just too time intensive for a beginner to it (like myself) to... well begin. Iv got enough Real-life issues that take up my time. I have considered getting into it in the past - even going as far as joining a GvG "training" guild, but over and over again I have realized that I am not willing to spend that much time on a "game". Thus, when I PvP, I stick to FA with the occasional AB or RA.

That isn't a problem with the PvP population like so many people think, though. That is the major flaw in the design of the game. It is not only the largest contributing factor to preventing new players from making the jump, but it is one of the largest contributing factors of why players who actually do play top-tier quit the game and don't come back. High-end players don't treat it like a job because they think it is the way it should be. They treat it like a job because it is the only way to get competitive in the format.

It is a major design flaw that was addressed and fixed (by the sound of it) in GW2. Unfortunately there isn't much you can do about it in GW1 simply because of how the game is designed. It is why PvPers constantly say new comers to PvP need the right attitude or you will not succeed. The game forces you to treat it like a job. You have to schedule your day around the game and play with the same people over and over again to improve as a team. You have to constantly study all the in-game and out of game resources available to you in order to help break the learning curve. It is a giant hurdle that hardly anyone wants to go through, and those who don't mind have already done so. The players who are left don't want to do it, and I don't blame them.

Missing HB · Aug 17, 2011, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by clear

Everyone was a beginner at one point and was rank discriminated or called a noob. This is part of the process to becoming a better player. If you didn't have productive and negative feedback how would you improve?

You also realize that being a beginner in PvP in 2006 and being a beginner in PvP in 2010 are 2 things completly diferent...

Being a beginner whilst 1/3 of the game are beginners too is quite easy for people to get better.... Being a beginner whilst 9/10 of the game are people playing the format for 3 years.... well yes...

The post above sumed it well : elitism has however nothing to see here, it's more likely about major flaws due to illogical updates that lead to inactivity and problems....

Let's take soccer as an example : this is quite the same, you obviously can't be the best in 1 day, you need practice... however, if you don't get results fast, you start thinking and kicking people..

The diference here is that you can practice soccer at anytime( it's physically possible) whereas you cannot at all in Guild Wars... It would be ridiculous if you told players that they could only practice at night, whereas it's what happens here for american/asian players

Lucy Saxon · Aug 17, 2011, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by clear

Sorry I only read Plutoman's most recent post maybe you can summarize the other 6 pages of posts for me?

I don't have to, you only quoted one post. It's not my fault you failed to comprehend the point of the post you replied to. Maybe if you read it again?

Plutoman says that a lot of PVE players don't *want* to put forth the effort to be serious about PVP because they don't want to feel like it's a job to do when they have enough work in real life.

You respond with "they can't get good if people don't criticise them and call them a noob" or something to that effect.

Err... what?

floor · Aug 17, 2011, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

PvPers are not teachers, but they are the ones whining how the GW PvP scene is dead. I couldn't care about it less, but i wanted to try something new - and yeah, i did my best at it, wasted lotsa time on obs just to grasp the structured PvP, watched yt, analysed builds. What more a rookie can do, if he's not given the opportunity to actually play, in pugs or guilds?

I was sure sooner or later a PvPer will assume that it was my fault, this way or another; an assumption built pretty much on nothing. "New players usually" is as viable, or even less so, as my "in most PvP guilds". That very thing is the prejudice that killed your PvP format.
Let me ask you though - have you, with your guild, ever opened recruitation for PvP scrubs, to actually give it a shot? Well, i tried to get into that format and got some experience - not in HA, but with PvP guilds. Seven ain't too many, but that's sure enough for me to say it's not worth the hassle.

e: tried to run my own pug, and when r2 glad was everything i could show when prompted, i was left alone

Actually, most pvp players whine far less than u might imagine. We just complain about the attitude that many players hold that its impossible to get involved and its entirely the fault of the existing playerbase for not going out of our way to accommodate beginners.

Things such as the guild ladder, tournament reward points, and title track points encourage the mentality of play to win. This is of course the reason that many people play guild wars, because they enjoy this competitive nature, although equally its the reason many people dont play. As a result of this though, its not really fair to blame those people who do play, for choosing to group with the best and most experienced players available. Its simply the way the game was designed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

You know what the problem is? You - and other high end PvP players - expect beginners to treat it like a job. It's not. A beginner is going to play because they think it's fun - they'll get good after playing. A beginner is not going to think, huh, this looks interesting - let's treat it like my college courses!

There's no entrance for casual PvP, and no methods for beginners to play - without having to treat it like a class, or work. People want to play and have fun. If they have to put an extra 50 hours of work into it before they can actually play and have fun (and barely get that as it is, until you put hundreds of hours), then they're not going to do it. Simple as that.

A beginner isn't going to enjoy playing where he gets tromped every game, either, regardless of how educational it might be for their PvP experience.

Well theres your mistake, to get involved in the game seriously more or less is a job. It will require a time investment in order to understand how to play the game to a decent level, and ultimately whats a 50 hour investment when you consider the number of players on the game who have literally spent thousands of hours online?? Losing is also part of the learning curve, anyone who wishes to get to the top understands that, as its simply a part of learning any new skill. When you fail, try again, until you succeed.

Ofc to play "casually" would be easier if there were more low level players and a route for entry, i dont argue that point. Although i do question whether casual pvp has ever existed. Even when i first started gvging and guilds got ranked right the way down to 10,000 before going N/A because you were too low, (and i was playing in the 850 rating, rank N/A zone), it was still competitive. I doubt anyone enters GvG with the intention of losing, and as soon as you play to win, you are playing seriously.

The only difference between between good/bad/new players is their ability to learn skills and the amount of time they are willing to invest in order to learn them (the same applies to PvE or in fact any activity in real life). All 3 types of players have the same mentality of play to win, and all 3 will experience frustration after losing repeatedly. As such can you really argue that there is such a thing as "casual GvG/HA"?

Jeydra · Aug 17, 2011, 11:07 AM // 11:07

^ Sure there is, there's byob of course and I've also played stupid builds like Shovespike with 7 Monk spikers just for the sake of it. No chance of beating any semi-decent guild but we didn't care.

However, I will also say that if a new player is serious about getting better, he can find guilds and players to play with. If he can't be bothered, then he can expect to stay anonymous, to find everyone elitist, etc. Said new player will have to put in time to master the new arena. Again, if he can't be bothered, he can't expect people to play with him either. Where there's a will, there's a way; the problem is many players just don't have the will.